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SubjectRe: [PATCH v1 00/10] mm: online/offline 4MB chunks controlled by device driver
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>> You exactly describe what has been the case for way too long. But this
>> is only the tip of the ice berg. Simply adding all memory to
>> ZONE_MOVABLE is not going to work (we create an imbalance - e.g. page
>> tables have to go into ZONE_NORMAL. this imbalance will have to be
>> managed later on). That's why I am rather thinking about said assignment
>> to different zones in the future. For now using ZONE_NORMAL is the
>> easiest approach.
>
> Well, I think it would be fair to say that memory hotplug is not really
> suitable for balancing memory between guests. Exactly because of the
> offline part. If you want to have a reliable offline you just screw
> yourself to the highmem land problems. This is the primary reason why I
> really detest any balooning like solutions based on the memory hotplug.

The important remark first: I hate using ballooning. I hate it for
literally any use case. And I keep stressing that virtio-mem is not a
balloon driver. Because it isn't. And I don't want people to think it is
one that can be used for some sort of "auto ballooning" or
"collaboration memory management. We have people on working on other
approaches to solve these problems (free page hinting, fake DAX etc.).

The use case is *not* to balance memory between guests. The use case is
to be able to add (and eventually remove some portion) of memory to a
guest easily and automatically managed.

Simple use case:

You want to give a guest more memory. You resize the virtio-mem device.
virtio-mem will find chunks and online them. No manual interaction. No
finding of free ACPI slots. No manual onlining in the guest. No special
migration handling in the hypervisor. One command in the hypervisor.

You want to try to remove some memory from the guest. You resize the
virtio-mem device. No manual finding a ACPI DIMM that can be removed.
Not manual offlining in the guest. No special migration handling in the
hypervisor. virtio-mem will handle it. One command in the hypervisor. If
the requested amount of memory cannot be unplugged, bad luck, no guarantees.

So if you want to put it that way, assuming the virtio-mem block size is
exactly 128MB (which is possible!), we will basically automatically
manage sections on x86. Which is in my POV already a major improvement.

The 4MB part is just an optimization, because in virtual environments we
are actually able to plug 4MB as you can see. So why fallback on
128MB/2GB if it is all already in the code? All we have to do is tell
kdump to not touch the memory. How to do that is what we are arguing about.

> I can see the case for adding memory to increase the initial guests
> sizes but that can be achieved with what we have currently without any
> additional complexity in the generic code. So you really have to have
> some seriously convincing arguments in hands. So far I haven't heard
> any, to be honest. This is just yet another thing that can be achieved
> with what other ballooning solutions are doing. I might be wrong because
> this is not really my area and I might underestimate some nuances but
> as already said, you have to be really convincing..
If I plug a 16GB DIMM I can only unplug 16GB again. This is a clear
restriction. Not even talking about zones. By using 4MB/8MB/128MB parts
we have *a lot* more freedom. And a paravirtualized interface gives us
all the freedom to support this.

And again, no ballooning please. Combinations of ACPI hotplug and
balloon (fake) memory unplug is to be avoided by any means. And it only
works on selected architectures.

Please go back to the benefits section in the cover letter, what you are
looking for is all there (e.g. support for architectures without proper
HW interfaces).

Also, please, before you start using the term "additional complexity"
please look at the patches. It is all already in the code and I am
fixing offline_pages() and reusing it. Again, please have a look how
much of all this is already working. You keep phrasing it as I am
putting big hacks and complexity into existing code. This is not true.

>
>>>> Try to find one 4MB chunk of a
>>>> "128MB" DIMM that can be unplugged: With ZONE_NORMAL
>>>> maybe possible. With ZONE_MOVABLE: likely possible.
>>>>
>>>> But let's not go into the discussion of ZONE_MOVABLE vs. ZONE_NORMAL, I
>>>> plan to work on that in the future.
>>>>
>>>> Think about it that way: A compromise between section based memory
>>>> hotplug and page based ballooning.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2. memory hotplug and 128MB size
>>>>
>>>> Interesting point. One thing to note is that "The whole memory hotplug
>>>> is centered around memory sections and those are 128MB in size" is
>>>> simply the current state how it is implemented in Linux, nothing more.
>>>
>>> Yes, and we do care about that because the whole memory hotplug is a
>>> bunch of hacks duct taped together to address very specific usecases.
>>> It took me one year to put it into a state that my eyes do not bleed
>>> anytime I have to look there. There are still way too many problems to
>>> address. I certainly do not want to add more complication. Quite
>>> contrary, the whole code cries for cleanups and sanity.
>>
>> And I highly appreciate your effort. But look at the details: I am even
>> cleaning up online_pages() and offline_pages(). And this is not the end
>> of my contributions :) This is one step into that direction. It
>> showcases what is easily possible right now. With existing interfaces.
>
> If you can bring some cleanups then great. I would suggest pulling those
> out and post separately.

The cleanup rely on patch number 1. This is marking pages as free
properly to detect when sections are offline. And even that part is
straight forward and contains no added complexity.

>
>>>> I want to avoid what balloon drivers do: rip out random pages,
>>>> fragmenting guest memory until we eventually trigger the OOM killer. So
>>>> instead, using 4MB chunks produces no fragmentation. And if I can't find
>>>> such a chunk anymore: bad luck. At least I won't be risking stability of
>>>> my guest.
>>>>
>>>> Does that answer your question?
>>>
>>> So you basically pull out those pages from the page allocator and mark
>>> them offline (reserved what ever)? Why do you need any integration to
>>> the hotplug code base then? You should be perfectly fine to work on
>>> top and only teach that hotplug code to recognize your pages are being
>>> free when somebody decides to offline the whole section. I can think of
>>> a callback that would allow that.
>>>
>>> But then you are, well a balloon driver, aren't you?
>>
>> Pointing you at: [1]
>>
>> I *cannot* use the page allocator. Using it would be a potential addon
>> (for special cases!) in the future. I really scan for removable chunks
>> in the memory region a certain virtio-mem device owns. Why can't I do it:
>>
>> 1. I have to allocate memory in certain physical address range (the
>> range that belongs to a virtio-mem device). Well, we could write an
>> allocator.
>
> Not really. Why cannot you simply mimic what the hotplug already does?
> Scan a pfn range and isolate/migrate it? We can abstract such
> functionality to be better usable.

Yes, I could, but why potentially duplicate code and "introduce more
complexity"? It is all there already in offlining code. And I am reusing
this. And it works just fine.

More importantly (please have a look at virtio-mem) it is a clean
implementation. No patching up of memory counts, no special function
calls. Using add_memory/remove_memory/online_pages/offline_pages is for
the "core" part enough.

Whatever you describe related to allocators and onlining screams like a
lot of complexity and new interfaces.

>
>> 2. I might have to deal with chunks that are bigger than MAX_ORDER - 1.
>> Say my virito-mem device has a block size of 8MB and I only can allocate
>> 4MB. I'm out of luck then.
>
> Confused again. So you are managing 4M chunks in 8M units?

Now the funny part: If my virtio-mem block size is 8MB chunks, I will
manage in 8MB chunks. If it is 128MB I will manage 128MB chunks
("sections").

The point I was making is: I cannot allocate 8MB/128MB using the buddy
allocator. All I want to do is manage the memory a virtio-mem device
provides as flexible as possible.

>
>> So, no, virtio-mem is not a balloon driver :)
> [...]
>>>> 1. "hotplug should simply not depend on kdump at all"
>>>>
>>>> In theory yes. In the current state we already have to trigger kdump to
>>>> reload whenever we add/remove a memory block.
>>>
>>> More details please.
>>
>> I just had another look at the whole complexity of
>> makedumfile/kdump/uevents and I'll follow up with a detailed description.
>>
>> kdump.service is definitely reloaded when setting a memory block
>> online/offline (not when adding/removing as I wrongly claimed before).
>>
>> I'll follow up with a more detailed description and all the pointers.
>
> Please make sure to describe what is the architecture then. I have no
> idea what kdump.servise is supposed to do for example.

Yes, will try to demangle how this all plays together :)

>
>>>> 2. kdump part
>>>>
>>>> Whenever we offline a page and tell the hypervisor about it ("unplug"),
>>>> we should not assume that we can read that page again. Now, if dumping
>>>> tools assume they can read all memory that is offline, we are in trouble.
>>>
>>> Sure. Just make those pages reserved. Nobody should touch those IIRC.
>>
>> I think I answered that question already (see [1]) in another thread: We
>> have certain buffers that are marked reserved. Reserved does not imply
>> don't dump. all dump tools I am aware of will dump reserved pages. I
>> cannot use reserved to mark sections offline once all pages are offline.
>
> Then fix those dump tools. They shouldn't have any business touching
> reserved memory, should they? That memory can be in an arbitrary state.

As I already stated, I don't think so. Please have a look how reserved
is used. Not exclusively for marking pages offline. There is a reason
why dump tools don't exclude that.

And for marking sections properly as offline (what offline_pages()
already implements to 99.999%), we need a new bit.

Again, it is all there and there is no added complexity. We just have to
set one additional bit properly.

>
>> And I don't think the current approach of using a mapcount value is the
>> problematic part. This is straight forward now.
>
> The thing is that struct page space is extremely scarce. Anytime you
> take a bit or there somebody else will have to scratch his head much
> harder in the future. So if we can go with the existing infrastructure
> then it should be preferable. And we do have "this page is mine do not
> even think about touching it" - PageReserved.
Yes, it is space. But I think it is space well spent for the reasons
outlined :)

--

Thanks,

David / dhildenb

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